Rooted In Revenue

Local SEO just got a reality check. Darren Shaw, founder of Whitespark, joins Rooted in Revenue to debunk some widely held myths while sharing what actually drives results for small businesses trying to dominate local search. If you're a real estate agent sharing office space with ten competitors, a service provider working from home, or any brick-and-mortar business wondering why your Google rankings aren't improving despite "doing everything right," this conversation will change how you approach local SEO forever.
Shaw breaks down the local filter that's silently crushing businesses sharing addresses, reveals why citation consistency isn't the ranking factor everyone thinks it is, and explains why your Google Business Profile needs constant attention, not a "set it and forget it" approach. Plus, he tackles the age-old question about Yelp's practices and shares the one ranking factor that trumps almost everything else.
About Darren Shaw
Darren founded Whitespark in 2005 as a web design and development company; however, his passion and curiosity for all things local search led to a shift in focus in 2010, and ultimately to what the company is today. These days, Whitespark specializes in local search software and services and is one of the most respected and cited in the industry.
Darren has been working on the web for over 19 years and loves everything about local SEO. He leads research initiatives such as the Local Search Ranking Factors survey and the Local Search Ecosystem. He is a regular contributor to search marketing publications, and speaks at conferences around the globe.
When Darren isn’t speaking at conferences, researching the latest in local search or designing the next best local SEO tool, he is spending time with his wife and daughter in their hometown of Edmonton, Alberta. In his spare time he’s traveling, sporting fancy socks, and drinking too much coffee.
Social Links:
https://whitespark.ca/ 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenshawwhitespark/
https://www.instagram.com/darrenshawseo/ 
https://www.facebook.com/darrenshawseo  

I heard Aaron Grando drop the term "pretotypes" on Leader Generation this morning and had to hit pause. Three minutes in, I realized I'd been vibe coding for months without knowing there was a name for it.
But pretotypes? That's when I knew I had to get him on the show immediately.
We're talking about taking your stream-of-consciousness ideas and building working drafts before you've even figured out what you want. For business owners doing $0.5 to 10 million a year, this isn't just another tech trend—it's the shift that stops you from waiting weeks for simple prototypes.
Aaron's VP of Creative Innovation at Mod Op, and in this spontaneous follow-up to his Leader Generation episode, we dig into what vibe coding actually means for your bottom line and why small teams are suddenly punching way above their weight class.
Action items to consider that tie to this episode:
Immediate (This Week)
Identify your development bottlenecks - Where are you currently waiting on programmers or outsourced developers?
Try a simple test - Pick one small coding need and experiment with ChatGPT or Claude
Map your current process - Document how long it takes to go from idea to working prototype
Set prompt boundaries - Practice asking AI for logical, non-emotional responses
Short-term (Next 30 Days)
Assess team capabilities - Identify who on your team has enough coding background to effectively prompt AI tools
Start with pretotypes - Use AI to visualize one business idea before investing in full development
Test platform limitations - Use AI to check if your ideas are feasible within your current tech stack
Calculate current costs - Figure out what you're spending on development delays and outsourcing
Medium-term (Next 90 Days)
Build AI into your process - Make vibe coding part of your standard ideation workflow
Train your team - Get key team members comfortable with AI coding tools
Measure time savings - Track how much faster you can go from idea to testable concept
Expand use cases - Beyond coding, use AI for project planning, gap analysis, and cross-industry perspectives
Strategic (Next 6-12 Months)
Evaluate in-house vs. outsourcing - Determine if AI tools change your staffing strategy
Invest in the right tools - Move beyond free ChatGPT to specialized coding tools if volume justifies it
Create AI-enabled processes - Build systems that let AI agents handle routine business tasks
Develop competitive advantage - Use speed-to-market improvements to outmaneuver slower competitors
Key Questions to Ask Yourself
Before listening:
How long does it currently take us to go from business idea to working prototype?
What development tasks are we avoiding because they seem too time-intensive?
After listening:
What's the first idea I've been putting off that I could pretotype this week?
Who on my team could become our "conductor" for AI-assisted development?
What would it mean for our business if we could cut development time by 75%?
Resources Mentioned
Tools: ChatGPT, Claude, Cursor (coding-specific AI)
Concept: Pretotypes (pre-prototype visualization)
Original episode: Leader Generation Podcast - "Vibe Coding" episode with Aaron Grando Here is the episode on Leader Generation.
 
About Guest Aaron Grando:
Aaron Grando, VP, Creative Innovation on Mod Op's Innovation team, is a seasoned technologist with over 15 years of experience at creative agencies. With a background in strategy, design, engineering, and marketing, Aaron has worked extensively in industries like media, entertainment, gaming, food & beverage, fashion, and technology. At Mod Op, Aaron leads efforts to integrate AI into creative processes, creating tools that connect creatives and clients with insights, spark ideas, and enable new brand experiences. Projects include collaborations with companies like NBCUniversal, Bethesda Softworks, Under Armour, Planet Fitness, Dietz & Watson, and more, focusing on infusing creative strategies with innovative technology to create cutting-edge brand experiences. 

Lany and Susan dive into the sometimes murky waters of consultant-client relationships. Drawing from years of experience sitting on every side of the boardroom table, they tackle the age-old question: "Who is responsible for doing the tasks at hand?"
Let's face it—consultants don't come with magic wands, and CEOs don't get to toss the keys and walk away. Whether you've ever wondered "Why isn't this working?" or "I paid a consultant, so why isn't everything fixed?" this episode cuts through the confusion with practical advice on setting boundaries, managing expectations, and creating successful partnerships.
Susan and Lany share real-world stories about scope creep, communication breakdowns, and the emotional rollercoaster that can derail even the best-intentioned business relationships. They also offer straightforward tips for both sides to keep things running smoothly, from clear contracts to honest conversations about decision-making authority.
Tune in for a no-nonsense discussion about what makes consultant-CEO partnerships work, and what doesn't!
 
Key Points from the Episode
Clear Roles and Responsibilities: CEOs and consultants must understand who owns what in the relationship. Consultants provide expertise and guidance, but CEOs remain the ultimate decision-makers.
Communication is Critical: Most problems in consultant-client relationships stem from poor communication or unclear expectations.
Consultants' Role: Consultants bring fresh perspectives, specialized expertise, and assessment capabilities but aren't responsible for the final decisions or outcomes.
CEO Authority: Business owners need to maintain their decision-making power and not abdicate responsibility to consultants.
Documentation and Contracts: Clear contracts and documentation help prevent scope creep and establish expectations for both parties.
Implementation Shared Effort: Even after a consultant provides recommendations, implementation requires effort from both parties.
Knowing When to Part Ways: Sometimes the relationship isn't a good fit, and both parties should know how to amicably end the engagement.

In this episode, Susan Finch and Lany Sullivan revisit a topic we can’t stress enough: branded email addresses. Using Gmail, Yahoo, or even AOL for business? You’re losing trust before the conversation starts. We dig into real examples, onboarding requirements, offboarding protocols, and the risk of letting your team operate with inconsistent or unprotected emails. Your email isn’t just a communication tool—it’s your brand's handshake.
Related Reading:
Domain, Email & Website Evaluation for Your Brand
Why Branded Email Matters – Quick Reminder
Listen, nod, then take action.

Struggling to make your real estate data stand out in a sea of generic market reports? In this episode of Rooted in Revenue, I share practical insights from my recent workshop with NRBA professionals Kelley Kesterson and Angelica Suarez, who are looking to elevate their marketing with meaningful data visualization. Discover how to transform complex market statistics into compelling visual stories that build trust and position you as the go-to expert in your local market—all using tools you already have access to, like Google Sheets. Stop wasting time on generic industry charts that mean nothing to your audience and start creating content that genuinely connects.
Key Points
Data with context builds trust - Generic industry charts without local relevance or explanation provide no value to your audience.
Simplify your data storytelling - Focus on communicating one clear message rather than overwhelming with multiple data points.
Use accessible tools - Google Sheets offers easy chart creation and customization without needing advanced design skills.
Brand your visuals - Customize colors to match your brand and include your logo so graphics remain attributed if shared.
Create master templates - Develop Google Slides masters with different layouts for different content types to maintain consistency.
Prioritize readability - Use high contrast between text and background, and consider accessibility for all viewers.
Post with purpose - Better to post quality content weekly than generic, contextless daily updates.
Establish visual consistency - Different content types should have recognizable, consistent layouts.
Consider format versatility - Create both square (Instagram) and rectangular (website/LinkedIn) versions of your template.
Show local expertise - Position yourself as the authority by translating national trends to your specific market conditions.

Susan sits down with former team member Karen Mares, Content Creator at Event Builder, who serves as her company's "marketing anchor" as she navigates the evolving landscape of AI tools.
Karen shares her journey from initial concerns about AI replacing her writing role to developing a strategic workflow where she remains firmly in control. You'll discover how she has combined multiple AI platforms—each serving distinct purposes in her content creation process—while ensuring that her human expertise, voice, and judgment remain the guiding force.
For marketing leaders seeking practical ways to integrate AI without compromising authenticity, Karen offers invaluable insights: training AI tools in your company's voice, identifying and eliminating phrases that give away AI, and creating approval processes that maintain compliance standards. Her approach has significantly accelerated content production while preserving the quality and distinctiveness that only a skilled human writer can deliver.
Whether you're just beginning to explore AI tools or looking to refine your existing processes, this conversation provides a blueprint for keeping the human element central while leveraging AI's capabilities to expand your content reach and impact.
Join us to learn how to stay firmly at the helm while letting AI help power your content journey forward.
Karen Mares on LinkedInEventBuilder
Love, Hate, Delegate: Transforming Your Business Through Delegation
LEADER GENERATION EP109: AI, Data & Marketing: How To Manage Risks

Terry Hopkins | President & CEO, Grants Pass Chamber of Commerce:
Grants Pass native Terry Hopkins has returned to his roots after a diverse hospitality career across five states. With over 25 years of business ownership and management experience in Southern Oregon, Terry recently spent 5 years as a business advocate with the Oregon Restaurant & Lodging Association. Married for 20+ years with two sons, Terry is passionate about community service, having served on numerous Chamber and city committees. He's excited to join the Grants Pass & Josephine County Chamber of Commerce team to advocate for local businesses and enhance community development.
[email protected]  |  541-956-4100
 

Lany Sullivan sits down with Mark Cleve, who shares his remarkable 32-year journey with Tom James, the premium custom clothing company that's grown from $119 million to over $600 million during his tenure. Mark reveals the business philosophy that has guided his success: "You don't build a business, you build people and people build a business."
From his early door-to-door book-selling experiences to becoming a trusted name in custom clothing, Mark offers powerful insights on why clothing matters, how to build systems that scale, and why the ultimate business legacy is reliability. Discover why Mark has only lost clients for three reasons: how the right clothing creates both confidence and respect, and why he believes that dressing appropriately for occasions shows respect for others. Whether you're in fashion, sales, or any client-facing business, Mark's practical wisdom on creating "consciously competent" customers who trust you completely offers a blueprint for building your lasting business legacy.
Connect with Mark:
[email protected]  | 503-819-7001
LinkedIn  | Instagram | Website
About Mark Cleve
Mark Cleve is a Division Vice President, Image Consultant, and Executive Clothier at Tom James Company, the world's largest manufacturer and retailer of custom clothing. Based in Portland, Oregon, Mark has dedicated over 32 years to helping professionals elevate their presence through tailored wardrobe solutions. With a client-centric approach, he meets individuals at their homes or offices, crafting bespoke garments that reflect their unique style and career aspirations.
His career began at Southwestern Company, selling educational books door-to-door—an experience he calls the hardest and best job he ever had. A graduate of Indiana University Bloomington (B.A. in Religious Studies and English), Mark brings analytical insight and interpersonal skill to his work.
Beyond his professional life, Mark enjoys music, food, wine, travel, and the outdoors. He takes pride in delivering concierge-level service that empowers clients to make lasting first impressions across all aspects of their professional and social lives.

We're continuing our exploration of effective marketing strategies with the experts from iHeartRadio. In our first segment, we discovered how radio remains 'America's Trusted Companion' and explored the powerful geofencing capabilities that can target potential customers with remarkable precision.
Now, we're shifting focus to the strategic side - how businesses of all sizes can effectively incorporate audio marketing into their overall strategy, even with limited budgets. Julie and Kevin share valuable insights on the psychology behind effective advertising, the multiplier effect of audio on other marketing channels, and practical approaches to campaign timing that maximize impact without breaking the bank. Let's rejoin the conversation as they break down the differences between host-read ads and generic spots, and reveal how audio fits into a comprehensive marketing strategy.
This episode could have also been called:
The Host-Read Advantage: Building Trust Through Strategic Audio Marketing"
"The Marketing Multiplier Effect: How Audio Amplifies Your Entire Strategy"
"Strategic Audio Campaigns: Maximizing Impact on Any Budget"
"Beyond Digital: Using Radio and Podcasts to Boost Your Marketing ROI"
"Marketing Funnel Mastery: How Audio Drives Results at Every Stage"
"The Flighting Strategy: Smart Seasonal Campaigns for Year-Round Impact"
"Audio Marketing Psychology: Why Radio and Podcasts Create Deeper Connections"

Real estate brokers searching for an edge are discovering what radio professionals have known all along – radio remains 'America's Trusted Companion' even in our digital age. This special segment of Rooted in Revenue brings you face-to-face with iHeartRadio experts Julie Beaulieu and Kevin Cash, who share surprising insights about radio's continued growth and its unique ability to build community trust.
Learn how their advanced geofencing technology lets you precisely target potential clients – from specific neighborhoods to competitors' open houses – creating opportunities traditional digital marketing misses. You'll understand why radio creates deeper connections with listeners and how this translates directly into brand credibility for real estate professionals.
Whether you're running a boutique agency or a larger brokerage, discover practical strategies to incorporate radio into your marketing mix without stretching your budget. This conversation might completely change how you think about connecting with future clients and positioning your brand in the competitive real estate landscape.

What happens after you've found that perfect addition to your team? How do you create an onboarding experience that makes new hires feel confident, valued, and ready to contribute? In the last episode, Susan and Lany walked you through establishing a solid hiring process. The topic is Beyond the Hire: Creating a Welcoming Onboarding Experience That Builds Lasting Teams.
In this second half, they explore the critical role of mentorship in successful onboarding, including how to support first-time mentors and celebrate this growth opportunity for existing team members. From day-one preparations to long-term development strategies, they share practical insights on welcoming new team members in ways that strengthen your company culture and improve retention. Whether you're managing an in-person or virtual team, these actionable steps will help you transform the critical first months of employment into the foundation for lasting success.
Key Points Checklist:
Prepare thoroughly before day one to set new hires up for success
Create comprehensive welcome materials that serve as an ongoing resource
Establish clear points of contact and communication channels
Support and celebrate team members who are becoming mentors for the first time
Assign small projects to build confidence and assess skills
Conduct regular check-ins during the critical first 90 days
Develop appropriate performance metrics for evaluation
Encourage feedback in both directions throughout the process
Refine roles based on demonstrated strengths and company needs
Create opportunities for continuous growth and skill development
 

Are you planning to bring a new team member on board? Before you start interviewing candidates, there's critical groundwork that needs to be laid. In this episode of Rooted in Revenue, hosts Susan Finch and Lany Sullivan walk you through the essential steps to prepare your business for a successful hire. From mapping out processes to setting up the right tech stack, they share practical advice drawn from years of experience working with business owners. Learn how proper preparation not only makes onboarding smoother but also sets your new team member up for success from day one.
Lany's 5 steps:
Assess business needs and identify gaps - Analyze what tasks you dislike or don't bring value, determine inefficiencies, and decide whether you need a fractional, part-time, or full-time person.
Clarify roles and responsibilities - Create a detailed scope of work outlining specific tasks, required skills, and what success looks like in the role.
Map out processes and document workflows - Create comprehensive documentation of all processes so the new hire doesn't have to ask questions, allowing for improvements and innovations constantly.
Set up tech and systems for success - Ensure all tools, access levels, communication channels, and documentation are properly prepared and organized.
Prepare training and onboarding materials - Develop a structured plan for the new hire's first days and weeks, including who they should go to for different questions and establish decision hierarchies.
Links from this episode:
Lany's article on LinkedIn
Our episode about Love, Hate, Delegate